Marlena Graves—author, writer, speaker, and teacher—joins me on the podcast this week. Marlena has written a terrific book titled, A Beautiful Disaster: finding hope in the midst of brokenness.

We spend some time talking about two different passages in the book—first, about how God really sees us, and second, we focus on play. I struggle with letting go of the serious and playing. If you have those tendencies, you’ll especially appreciate the second half of our conversation.